Ukrainian photographer Maksym DondyukHe has been fighting the war since 2014. He visited the hottest spots, in particular the Ilovai boiler. At the beginning of the full-scale war, he documented the battles in the Kiev region, and his photos are published by the leading publications of the world. Maxim Dondyuk works on long-term author's projects, which are personal reflections on the war in Ukraine. Maxim talked about creating photos from the new “White Series”, about finding his own visual language and why every frame of it is an attempt to convey hatred of war.
— In your author's projects, in particular in the “White Series”, you show the war through the landscape. Why exactly this genre?
— I have been photographing the war in Ukraine since 2014. After a year of filming active combat actions, I decided to pause. In 2017, he traveled the former demarcation line, where he saw war, blood and murder, where he saw destroyed houses and land fought for every meter. I have traveled along this line from the Sea of Azov to the Russian border several times. All of this territory, except for a small piece near New York, is now unfortunately occupied by Russian troops.
When I arrived, all these places were not needed by anyone, they were devastated. Instead, there were already some rebuilt houses, shops, block-posts nearby. It reminded me of the condition I had and those who came back from the war. The state of inner emptiness when you come from the front and no one understands you. You ask yourself why there is still corruption, or why everyone here drinks wine when they still kill there. There is despair, as well as misunderstandings with relatives and friends.
In 2017, I filmed a series “Between Life and Death”where he showed the effects of war through the landscape. Before the war, I also used landscape photography, for example in a series about Chernobyl. For me, this is a convenient format, the possibility of a more artistic approach to photography. I am very tired of what I was doing at the beginning of my creative path, when I was working more with people. True, the full-scale war brought me back again — for the first year I actively worked with the military, documented events, collaborated with magazines. When war comes to your home, you are no longer into art. Someone takes a weapon, and someone takes a camera and does everything they can. The military is fighting Russian soldiers, and for me it was a war with Russian propaganda.
At some point I realized that I was very tired of everything I was doing at the front. It became increasingly difficult to access the footage of the fighting. I went back to landscape photography. I spent the last two winters in Donetsk, Kharkiv and Kherson regions. After the project on the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, I can say freak-out about maps. In the summer I marked the objects of interest to me on the map, and in the winter I went to the shooting.
I lived in Izyum, Kramatorsk, if possible, went to the front line, but most of the time I waited for the weather I needed to shoot the “White Series”. I needed a few inches of snow, frost, so that there was no sun. It is not so often that all these parameters coincide. So I shot some objects ten, twenty times. I just took the car, drove into the fields, knowing that they were all mined. Tried to walk the trails if I noticed them. When there was no weather, I was looking for new potentially interesting locations for filming. Such a scrupulous landscape approach to the photo. For me, it is also a meditative approach, when I was alone among the field, winter and frost, such a kind of conversation with myself. For me, this series is very private.
“The White Series” about what will happen to humanity if we do not stop fighting. It just shows me what our planet might look like if we beat each other up over territory, resources, or religion. This is not only a problem of Ukraine and Russia, it is a global problem of humanity, because we cannot stop, we cannot not fight. My new series is about the hatred of everything related to war. War generates aggression, it destroys life, nature, technology.
— How connected are your projects “Between Life and Death” and “White Series”. Is one a continuation of the other?
— Separating these two series of photos is very difficult. In the end, my project on Chernobyl is also based on a similar approach. He used visual languages that are very intersecting. They are like twins. Nevertheless, the “White Series” is different, it is deeper, more powerful, I use the medium format for shooting. The idea originated in 2017, when he first traveled to places where he was in 2014 with the military. I had psychological problems and I needed to go back there, see everything again and reflect on the events of the war.
The projects “Between Life and Death” and “White Series” are related. However, for the filming of the “White Series”, I use a medium format so that the photos can be printed three to four meters in size. I see this project for exhibitions in galleries. Imagine walking into a space and noticing such an interesting landscape. At first it seems that it is something beautiful, but in fact it is our distorted aesthetic. Because visual art is often based on suffering, wars or religious crucifixions. As you get closer and closer to the photo, you already see the destruction and scars that war leaves.
I am sure that people who live abroad and have completely different problems may not understand the photos of the “White Series”. Photos will be closer for those who know what war and devastation are. This series is probably more about me and my inner worldview, how I perceive what war leaves behind.
— Why are there no people in your pictures from the “White Series” at all?
— “When I was shooting the series Between Life and Death, it was very important for me to convey the emptiness that I felt myself and that many of the guys who came back from the front felt. When you come home, and you end the meaning of life, there is no understanding of what to do next. Many soldiers return to the front again because they cannot find work, are not understood by family and friends. If the military has PTSD, it is very, very heavy inside.
In 2017, I tried to visualize the emptiness that was in me. I couldn't go back to the front and shoot again, so I went along this line of demarcation. For me, it was therapy through art. Then the war continued, but the front line did not move, and everything seemed to freeze. Now, in the “White Series”, the idea is different, since active combat actions are being waged. Now it is important for me to show what will remain of humanity. If we do not stop fighting, there will be a nuclear winter and everything will be covered with snow, everything will freeze. Destroyed houses and rusted tanks will remain in some places.
War does nothing good. I simply do not believe that war happens with any good intention, that war is fought for religion, nation, or any other ideals. Human life is more important than a piece of land. It is a very painful topic for me to hear that it is necessary to fight, to fight and to liberate everything. I would like to know how many more boys and girls have to die for this. How difficult and painful it will be for our country. How destructive war is to any country.
I only filmed the war in Ukraine. I am not a war photographer who travels to other countries. I'm not interested in that. I see the war as a person, as a Ukrainian to whom it happened. I took the camera not because I decided to film the war, but because this sworn war came to our country. I am such an idealistic humanist and it is very difficult for me.
With the pictures from the “White Series” I try to show what can happen to our world. We will all be in ruins. There are a lot of such things that I photograph in Ukraine now in other countries, such as Afghanistan, Chechnya. I cannot understand the meaning in the actions of these countries that start wars, such as the Russian Federation, the United States and others. When they come to a strange land and they need something. I can't find the answer. Instead, I walked through mined fields for months and just took pictures. Someone collects various items, someone — impressions. I collected, collected on a white background, threw away things that were once important. The tank was important, someone sat in it, this house was important, people lived there. Now everything is destroyed and devastated, like our entire country.
— The idea to create the “White Series” arose as a result of long filming of the war? How and when did you conceive her visual language?
— In this case, I decided everything before filming. I needed to buy special equipment for photographing panoramas, learn how to use it correctly. Canadian photographer Edward Burtinsky works in this style. He helped me make panoramas, and now he is very supportive of my project.
I decided to make all the photos of the series completely original, without significant post-production. It happened that the twentieth came to the monument in Izyum, and there was still not enough fog, or the sun looked out from behind the clouds. And I just stood, and I couldn't take a picture. The viewer sees one white frame. To him, it looks like someone drove in a car, took a photo and drove on. Instead, two years before this picture, I was making a map, lived in Donetsk region for two winters, traveled many kilometers to catch a few minutes of the weather I needed. If suitable conditions occurred, I quickly drove the car to several objects at once.
— In the project “Between Life and Death”, in addition to the photo, you add quotes from “Tao De Jing. The Book of Path and Dignity” by Lao Tzu. Why this book?
After 2014, I tried to find balance in myself. Initially looking for ways in Western philosophy, he lived for a while in Europe. Then I realized that my way of thinking and perceiving the world gravitates towards the eastern. Until 2021, I traveled a lot in Asia. I am fascinated by Taoism and Buddhism, I have read a lot of relevant literature, several times immersed myself in meditative practices in temples.
I really like Lao Tzu, in particular his book “Tao De Jing”. Just picked the quotes that best reflect my attitude towards the war. Lao Tzu writes very powerful things. For example, he talks about two countries that fought and one of them won. An army that has killed thousands of people should not celebrate, stage parades, or drink wine. The day of the end of the war is mournful, because no one can enjoy the fact that someone is killed. Even though the dead are enemies. I am sometimes shocked when I see people in restaurants in Ukraine watching videos of drones killing someone at breakfast and marking it with a “smiley face”. It's easiest to talk about patriotism over dinner in a safe place. I've seen war, I've been wounded twice, spent a lot of time with the military, but I still don't understand how you can enjoy killing, even enemies.
I can understand when this happens to the military. Yet it amazes me to see so much hatred in civilians who have no experience at the front. They seem to have come to the theater or the cinema. What kind of idea is it, to watch someone get killed. I saw more respect for the enemies at the front than in the towns farther from the line of contact. It's just nonsense. I am also talking about the respect that often exists on the front between militaries on different sides, even considering the fact that they are fighting.
Hatred and aggression destroys us from the inside, burns us out. We will begin to destroy not only our enemies, but also family, friends, ultimately, our country. When hatred takes hold of us, we will not be able to just stop after the war is over. We will start looking for new enemies, but this time among our families, acquaintances, inside our country.
I tried to convey the message of the pictures, supplementing them with expressions of Lao Tzu. For who will give meaning to my words. I added quotes from the book “Tao De Jing. The Book of Way and Dignity”, where Lao Tzu talks about war and how to fight when you had to do it when the enemy came to your country. First of all, a person must remain a humanist, even in times of war. Maintain humanity, and not become a beast.
— In the preface to your exhibition “Modern Ukrainian Landscape” in Lviv's “I Gallery”, curator Pavlo Gudimov writes that the silence of war is more frightening than active actions. How much do you agree with this statement?
I agree 100%. If you ask the guys in the front door what is worst for them, they will say that silence. If you ask the stormtrooper what is most terrible for him, he will say that this is an unknown on the way to combat positions. In war photos and videos, we often see action. However, this is only ten percent of the war, the remaining ninety is silence and expectation. When you are driving along the road, and no car comes across you, you subconsciously start to worry, you do not understand what could have happened. For me, during filming at the front, the silence was also the worst. When you hear the arrival and shots, you understand where to expect danger, you get certainty. The silence, on the other hand, is very heavy. Even in the city, after the air alarm, you begin to live with the thought that this time you could die. Expectation and silence are the worst in war.
My White Series photos are not an attempt to convey silence, but an attempt to convey my inner state. Art for me is not only a means of self-expression, but also a tool for deep analysis and reflection. I aim to create a space for contemplation where viewers confront complex issues, explore their feelings, rethink their relationships with the world and history; I hope to elicit emotional and intellectual feedback, inspiring deeper understanding and awareness.
— The photos of the “White Series” are visually attractive and beautiful. How aesthetic can a photograph of war be?
If you show a person the war the way a webcam shows you, showing bodies and “meat”, no one will watch it. It is necessary to work with the consciousness of the viewer, because everyone has a certain visual perception, which is based on art, painting. It is necessary to lure the viewer into this trap so that he will open, look and then his mind will feel this horror of war. In The White Series, I use this visual aesthetic to make people come closer and feel the emotion. People often ask me why my photos are so aesthetic and beautiful. I always ask them in response why they perceive it as something beautiful. Why photographs of bodies of dead people, destroyed houses and mangled tanks can be called attractive. Perhaps it is the problem of all humanity that we, looking at images of suffering, murder and war, perceive them as aesthetic. Artists understand these things and use them to communicate with their audience. Susan Sontag writes a lot about this problem in her book “Observing the Pain of Others.”
— Photographing war for you is documenting and informing, or is it still art and aesthetics?
“When the war started in 2014, and then the full-scale war in 2022, at first I still documented the events. However, I always try to look for things at the same time that I can use for exhibitions or as an idea for an author's project. Because photos of current events for magazines can be printed as international propaganda. However, I am not one of those photographers who use the same photos at the same time for publications, exhibitions and books. When I make stories for print in the media, at the same time I try to create frames for myself in another visual language. Sometimes I try to combine, but often it's just not possible. To make a shot that I like, sometimes I have to spend several weeks looking for a location and waiting for the right moment.
I have this approach to work, so I do not consider myself a photojournalist. If there is no good light, a good composition and the right combination of colors, I will not take a photo. Or I will make it by machine and then I will not use it anywhere. For me, the background of a photo is sometimes more important than what happened on it. Photojournalists follow the object in the frame, and their background is random. I choose a background and wait for something to happen on it.
When I was working on the “White Series”, at some point I realized that I was shooting the same tank for a whole week. I already have two hundred photos of this tank. Sometimes you get hung up on something without even realizing it. Many young journalists shoot the work of artillery, mortars, catch the “pipe with fire”, that is, the moment when the projectile flies out. They often do not understand that it is no longer possible to look at such monotonous in composition, light and plot of photographs. You need to look for your language, yourself and your style.
Of course, it is impossible not to repeat yourself. Now I have stopped photographing some military things, because I have been taking the same photo for two years, but from different angles. This happens to everyone. At this point, it is important to pause, distance yourself, review your entire photo archive, and, if possible, make an exhibition or book.
— You photographed many events at the beginning of a full-scale war. Please tell us about the photo from the cover of Time magazine!
I don't really like this photo. However, I understand why it became the cover of the magazine. At that time it was important for Ukraine, the cover attracted our attention.
I have collaborated with various magazines since 2014, the editors knew my work. At the beginning of 2022, it was the only way for me to continue working, as photographing war is expensive. You need to find a place to live, a car to be able to travel to Kharkiv, Zaporozhye, Kiev and other cities. International magazines have been a financial pillar for me. All the magazines I collaborated with were weeklies, I didn't have to send pictures every day. I had a lot of free time for my own filming. For the first four months I worked alone, without journalists. I had freedom of movement and choice of topics. I respect journalists if they respect my work. I am willing to wait for him three hours for an interview if he then waits for me when I work in the trench. However, if a journalist expects me only to film his interview in coffee shops, we will definitely not work.
— The full-scale war in Ukraine is filmed by many photographers, both Ukrainian and foreign. During these two and a half years, many photographic stamps and templates have already been formed. What do you think are the themes and aspects of the war that have not been adequately covered? How difficult is it in the field of photography today to create something completely new?
This problem is global. It was the same in 2014. Many modern photographers do not remember this because they were not yet engaged in photography at that time. There were only a few documentary photographers who worked before the war and, when the fighting began, continued to shoot. At the same time, there was a large layer of young photographers who began working for international news agencies or as fixers for foreign journalists and photographers. They had never heard of a documentary photograph or a photojournalist. In 2015, ninety percent of these photographers disappeared. They went to earn money in game design or in IT. Now the situation is the same.
It is very difficult to form your own visual language when you work in an information agency and have to shoot events and news every day. Something went wrong and you immediately ran there. When you only have two hours or five minutes to take photos. I do not really believe that under such conditions it is possible to develop your own style. When photographers run after the subject, they shoot everything in series, and then choose the best one for the agency out of five thousand photos. I'm not criticizing, it's work. At the same time, many photographers do something for their own money, travel a lot, look for something and document something. They can form their own shooting aesthetics and style.
The photo editor of Stern magazine once said to me, “Max, the easiest thing to shoot is war. You just have to have steel eggs.” And if you send a photographer to a place where nothing happens, he will not be able to shoot anything. He is used to photographing active actions in the war, where you are as if in a movie. I also went through this. This is normal. The first year you can “hammer”, and then comes awareness and you start to see other projects.
Most of the photographers currently documenting the war will also soon go into another profession that will bring in more money. The profession is slowly dying, and only news agencies still pay something for pictures. Magazines with which I have collaborated a lot, such as The New Yorker, Time, Stern, Der Spiegel and others, cut their budgets every year. During the year you can get a maximum of two shooting orders from them. Many documentarians change jobs.
There are photo festivals in Arles — Recontres d'Arles, and in Perpignan — Visa pour l'Image. Both festivals are documentary, but it's like two different poles. I've been there and there. In Perpignan, photographers communicate about which of them spent more days in the trenches or who came under fire more times. In the city of Arles, on the other hand, the war is told from a completely different perspective — I am talking about the art of documenting. When you work with journalism, but it still remains an art. At the Recontres d'Arles festival, they talk more about the inner world, not just stating facts. Photographs are not only about what happened or happened, there the authors use the medium of photography to convey some visual concept or smart concept.
You need to know these things so as not to repeat someone else. It is important to understand modern photography, to read criticism. In fact, very few photographers read. I have talked to many young photographers, and all of them just look at colleagues' photos for inspiration. And what's the point? Watch other photographers to repeat them? If you want to repeat someone, you should watch the films of Andrei Tarkovsky or Theodore Angelopoulos, read criticism or philosophy of art. This approach will give you a lot more ideas than looking at the top photos in Time magazine or the Associated Press.
Tell me, please, what inspires you? What books do you like to read, what movies do you watch?
I am fascinated by Eastern philosophy. I must have already read everything I can on this topic. I also read Western philosophers. I read criticism and theory of photography, literature on the development of visual art. I can say that I am such a bookworm. If I am asked to go to a party or to the beach, then I better stay at home with a book. I do not drink alcohol, I do not drink coffee, I communicate little with others, I have few friends in Ukraine. I'm closer to being at home with my wife, with a close circle of friends.
The best director for me is Theodore Angelopoulos. He touched on many difficult topics. His films about the Greeks and their culture. I especially advise you to watch the historical drama “Trilogy. A weeping meadow.” It tells about the history of Greece on the example of one family that returns from Odessa to Greece after the civil war. The film leaves a lot of impressions. After watching, my wife and I can discuss it for another week.
I am inspired by everything except photography. Most of all, I like to look at pictures. Of course, I find interesting authors. For example, I just adore Nadav Kander's pictures. I love working with archival photos. I did this in the project on the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. I still have a lot of archives from there that I haven't even started working with because of the war.
— Is it possible to continue to support attention to the war in Ukraine with photographs?
— Daily news from Ukraine is of little interest to people abroad. Everyone actively read about Bucha, the explosion of the dam of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power plant, etc., but we definitely do not need such events. Attention to Ukraine can only be focused on powerful and serious projects. These can be documentaries or photographs. However, our authorities do not understand that in order to create a large-scale in-depth project, and not propaganda, it is necessary to provide access and time for filming to Ukrainian and foreign authors. We are allowed to go to the presbytery for a day together with the pressoficer. Instead, you need to take cultural projects, multimedia projects, work with curators.
In Europe, people constantly go to cinemas, to exhibitions. You need to communicate with them through art. Our authorities must realize that it is necessary to spend money on work with museum and gallery spaces, send artists to art festivals. The authorities should provide access for filming, support documentarians, writers, artists with grant programs, give freedom for creativity, not control. Culture is important.
All my recent interviews are unfortunately about censorship and restricting access to the front line. After the material with Luke Mogelson about the life of our soldiers in the trenches, which was published in The New Yorker magazine, I was summoned for questioning at the SBU. I do not have accreditation from the Armed Forces and I cannot continue to shoot the front line. I do not believe that war is not a time to criticize the authorities. If the patient has gangrene or some other disease, it will not pass by the fact that the person will not be told about it. We need to talk about problems out loud.
Please tell me about the book you are currently working on.
“I came to the United States to finish a book about the war in Ukraine by the fall. I am helped to work on the book by Honorary Dean of ICP (International Center of Photography) Fred Ritchin. He writes a text for a book, does an interview with me. This will be a book about the first two years of a full-scale war in Ukraine, from 2024 there will be one or two photographs. The book is not only about the war, but also my reflections on it. Of course, there will be photographs of the dead, footage of the destruction, but my book is not about active fighting. I think that you can just stick the label “Meditation” to all my works. They are all about contemplation and awareness. When I see many photographers shooting something in one direction, I will definitely turn in the other direction. Therefore, my Maidan of Dignity is a panorama. I can't shoot with everyone.
He did all of his long-term projects himself. I don't need anyone to follow me or be near me. Often before shooting, I conduct visual studies, just walk, look, feel. Photography for me is about feeling, about collecting emotions. The book will be with photos that he shot before the “White Series”. Based on this author's project, I plan to make a separate book.
The material was prepared by Ekaterina Moskalyuk
Ukrainian photographer Maksym DondyukHe has been fighting the war since 2014. He visited the hottest spots, in particular the Ilovai boiler. At the beginning of the full-scale war, he documented the battles in the Kiev region, and his photos are published by the leading publications of the world. Maxim Dondyuk works on long-term author's projects, which are personal reflections on the war in Ukraine. Maxim talked about creating photos from the new “White Series”, about finding his own visual language and why every frame of it is an attempt to convey hatred of war.
— In your author's projects, in particular in the “White Series”, you show the war through the landscape. Why exactly this genre?
— I have been photographing the war in Ukraine since 2014. After a year of filming active combat actions, I decided to pause. In 2017, he traveled the former demarcation line, where he saw war, blood and murder, where he saw destroyed houses and land fought for every meter. I have traveled along this line from the Sea of Azov to the Russian border several times. All of this territory, except for a small piece near New York, is now unfortunately occupied by Russian troops.
When I arrived, all these places were not needed by anyone, they were devastated. Instead, there were already some rebuilt houses, shops, block-posts nearby. It reminded me of the condition I had and those who came back from the war. The state of inner emptiness when you come from the front and no one understands you. You ask yourself why there is still corruption, or why everyone here drinks wine when they still kill there. There is despair, as well as misunderstandings with relatives and friends.
In 2017, I filmed a series “Between Life and Death”where he showed the effects of war through the landscape. Before the war, I also used landscape photography, for example in a series about Chernobyl. For me, this is a convenient format, the possibility of a more artistic approach to photography. I am very tired of what I was doing at the beginning of my creative path, when I was working more with people. True, the full-scale war brought me back again — for the first year I actively worked with the military, documented events, collaborated with magazines. When war comes to your home, you are no longer into art. Someone takes a weapon, and someone takes a camera and does everything they can. The military is fighting Russian soldiers, and for me it was a war with Russian propaganda.
At some point I realized that I was very tired of everything I was doing at the front. It became increasingly difficult to access the footage of the fighting. I went back to landscape photography. I spent the last two winters in Donetsk, Kharkiv and Kherson regions. After the project on the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, I can say freak-out about maps. In the summer I marked the objects of interest to me on the map, and in the winter I went to the shooting.
I lived in Izyum, Kramatorsk, if possible, went to the front line, but most of the time I waited for the weather I needed to shoot the “White Series”. I needed a few inches of snow, frost, so that there was no sun. It is not so often that all these parameters coincide. So I shot some objects ten, twenty times. I just took the car, drove into the fields, knowing that they were all mined. Tried to walk the trails if I noticed them. When there was no weather, I was looking for new potentially interesting locations for filming. Such a scrupulous landscape approach to the photo. For me, it is also a meditative approach, when I was alone among the field, winter and frost, such a kind of conversation with myself. For me, this series is very private.
“The White Series” about what will happen to humanity if we do not stop fighting. It just shows me what our planet might look like if we beat each other up over territory, resources, or religion. This is not only a problem of Ukraine and Russia, it is a global problem of humanity, because we cannot stop, we cannot not fight. My new series is about the hatred of everything related to war. War generates aggression, it destroys life, nature, technology.
— How connected are your projects “Between Life and Death” and “White Series”. Is one a continuation of the other?
— Separating these two series of photos is very difficult. In the end, my project on Chernobyl is also based on a similar approach. He used visual languages that are very intersecting. They are like twins. Nevertheless, the “White Series” is different, it is deeper, more powerful, I use the medium format for shooting. The idea originated in 2017, when he first traveled to places where he was in 2014 with the military. I had psychological problems and I needed to go back there, see everything again and reflect on the events of the war.
The projects “Between Life and Death” and “White Series” are related. However, for the filming of the “White Series”, I use a medium format so that the photos can be printed three to four meters in size. I see this project for exhibitions in galleries. Imagine walking into a space and noticing such an interesting landscape. At first it seems that it is something beautiful, but in fact it is our distorted aesthetic. Because visual art is often based on suffering, wars or religious crucifixions. As you get closer and closer to the photo, you already see the destruction and scars that war leaves.
I am sure that people who live abroad and have completely different problems may not understand the photos of the “White Series”. Photos will be closer for those who know what war and devastation are. This series is probably more about me and my inner worldview, how I perceive what war leaves behind.
— Why are there no people in your pictures from the “White Series” at all?
— “When I was shooting the series Between Life and Death, it was very important for me to convey the emptiness that I felt myself and that many of the guys who came back from the front felt. When you come home, and you end the meaning of life, there is no understanding of what to do next. Many soldiers return to the front again because they cannot find work, are not understood by family and friends. If the military has PTSD, it is very, very heavy inside.
In 2017, I tried to visualize the emptiness that was in me. I couldn't go back to the front and shoot again, so I went along this line of demarcation. For me, it was therapy through art. Then the war continued, but the front line did not move, and everything seemed to freeze. Now, in the “White Series”, the idea is different, since active combat actions are being waged. Now it is important for me to show what will remain of humanity. If we do not stop fighting, there will be a nuclear winter and everything will be covered with snow, everything will freeze. Destroyed houses and rusted tanks will remain in some places.
War does nothing good. I simply do not believe that war happens with any good intention, that war is fought for religion, nation, or any other ideals. Human life is more important than a piece of land. It is a very painful topic for me to hear that it is necessary to fight, to fight and to liberate everything. I would like to know how many more boys and girls have to die for this. How difficult and painful it will be for our country. How destructive war is to any country.
I only filmed the war in Ukraine. I am not a war photographer who travels to other countries. I'm not interested in that. I see the war as a person, as a Ukrainian to whom it happened. I took the camera not because I decided to film the war, but because this sworn war came to our country. I am such an idealistic humanist and it is very difficult for me.
With the pictures from the “White Series” I try to show what can happen to our world. We will all be in ruins. There are a lot of such things that I photograph in Ukraine now in other countries, such as Afghanistan, Chechnya. I cannot understand the meaning in the actions of these countries that start wars, such as the Russian Federation, the United States and others. When they come to a strange land and they need something. I can't find the answer. Instead, I walked through mined fields for months and just took pictures. Someone collects various items, someone — impressions. I collected, collected on a white background, threw away things that were once important. The tank was important, someone sat in it, this house was important, people lived there. Now everything is destroyed and devastated, like our entire country.
— The idea to create the “White Series” arose as a result of long filming of the war? How and when did you conceive her visual language?
— In this case, I decided everything before filming. I needed to buy special equipment for photographing panoramas, learn how to use it correctly. Canadian photographer Edward Burtinsky works in this style. He helped me make panoramas, and now he is very supportive of my project.
I decided to make all the photos of the series completely original, without significant post-production. It happened that the twentieth came to the monument in Izyum, and there was still not enough fog, or the sun looked out from behind the clouds. And I just stood, and I couldn't take a picture. The viewer sees one white frame. To him, it looks like someone drove in a car, took a photo and drove on. Instead, two years before this picture, I was making a map, lived in Donetsk region for two winters, traveled many kilometers to catch a few minutes of the weather I needed. If suitable conditions occurred, I quickly drove the car to several objects at once.
— In the project “Between Life and Death”, in addition to the photo, you add quotes from “Tao De Jing. The Book of Path and Dignity” by Lao Tzu. Why this book?
After 2014, I tried to find balance in myself. Initially looking for ways in Western philosophy, he lived for a while in Europe. Then I realized that my way of thinking and perceiving the world gravitates towards the eastern. Until 2021, I traveled a lot in Asia. I am fascinated by Taoism and Buddhism, I have read a lot of relevant literature, several times immersed myself in meditative practices in temples.
I really like Lao Tzu, in particular his book “Tao De Jing”. Just picked the quotes that best reflect my attitude towards the war. Lao Tzu writes very powerful things. For example, he talks about two countries that fought and one of them won. An army that has killed thousands of people should not celebrate, stage parades, or drink wine. The day of the end of the war is mournful, because no one can enjoy the fact that someone is killed. Even though the dead are enemies. I am sometimes shocked when I see people in restaurants in Ukraine watching videos of drones killing someone at breakfast and marking it with a “smiley face”. It's easiest to talk about patriotism over dinner in a safe place. I've seen war, I've been wounded twice, spent a lot of time with the military, but I still don't understand how you can enjoy killing, even enemies.
I can understand when this happens to the military. Yet it amazes me to see so much hatred in civilians who have no experience at the front. They seem to have come to the theater or the cinema. What kind of idea is it, to watch someone get killed. I saw more respect for the enemies at the front than in the towns farther from the line of contact. It's just nonsense. I am also talking about the respect that often exists on the front between militaries on different sides, even considering the fact that they are fighting.
Hatred and aggression destroys us from the inside, burns us out. We will begin to destroy not only our enemies, but also family, friends, ultimately, our country. When hatred takes hold of us, we will not be able to just stop after the war is over. We will start looking for new enemies, but this time among our families, acquaintances, inside our country.
I tried to convey the message of the pictures, supplementing them with expressions of Lao Tzu. For who will give meaning to my words. I added quotes from the book “Tao De Jing. The Book of Way and Dignity”, where Lao Tzu talks about war and how to fight when you had to do it when the enemy came to your country. First of all, a person must remain a humanist, even in times of war. Maintain humanity, and not become a beast.
— In the preface to your exhibition “Modern Ukrainian Landscape” in Lviv's “I Gallery”, curator Pavlo Gudimov writes that the silence of war is more frightening than active actions. How much do you agree with this statement?
I agree 100%. If you ask the guys in the front door what is worst for them, they will say that silence. If you ask the stormtrooper what is most terrible for him, he will say that this is an unknown on the way to combat positions. In war photos and videos, we often see action. However, this is only ten percent of the war, the remaining ninety is silence and expectation. When you are driving along the road, and no car comes across you, you subconsciously start to worry, you do not understand what could have happened. For me, during filming at the front, the silence was also the worst. When you hear the arrival and shots, you understand where to expect danger, you get certainty. The silence, on the other hand, is very heavy. Even in the city, after the air alarm, you begin to live with the thought that this time you could die. Expectation and silence are the worst in war.
My White Series photos are not an attempt to convey silence, but an attempt to convey my inner state. Art for me is not only a means of self-expression, but also a tool for deep analysis and reflection. I aim to create a space for contemplation where viewers confront complex issues, explore their feelings, rethink their relationships with the world and history; I hope to elicit emotional and intellectual feedback, inspiring deeper understanding and awareness.
— The photos of the “White Series” are visually attractive and beautiful. How aesthetic can a photograph of war be?
If you show a person the war the way a webcam shows you, showing bodies and “meat”, no one will watch it. It is necessary to work with the consciousness of the viewer, because everyone has a certain visual perception, which is based on art, painting. It is necessary to lure the viewer into this trap so that he will open, look and then his mind will feel this horror of war. In The White Series, I use this visual aesthetic to make people come closer and feel the emotion. People often ask me why my photos are so aesthetic and beautiful. I always ask them in response why they perceive it as something beautiful. Why photographs of bodies of dead people, destroyed houses and mangled tanks can be called attractive. Perhaps it is the problem of all humanity that we, looking at images of suffering, murder and war, perceive them as aesthetic. Artists understand these things and use them to communicate with their audience. Susan Sontag writes a lot about this problem in her book “Observing the Pain of Others.”
— Photographing war for you is documenting and informing, or is it still art and aesthetics?
“When the war started in 2014, and then the full-scale war in 2022, at first I still documented the events. However, I always try to look for things at the same time that I can use for exhibitions or as an idea for an author's project. Because photos of current events for magazines can be printed as international propaganda. However, I am not one of those photographers who use the same photos at the same time for publications, exhibitions and books. When I make stories for print in the media, at the same time I try to create frames for myself in another visual language. Sometimes I try to combine, but often it's just not possible. To make a shot that I like, sometimes I have to spend several weeks looking for a location and waiting for the right moment.
I have this approach to work, so I do not consider myself a photojournalist. If there is no good light, a good composition and the right combination of colors, I will not take a photo. Or I will make it by machine and then I will not use it anywhere. For me, the background of a photo is sometimes more important than what happened on it. Photojournalists follow the object in the frame, and their background is random. I choose a background and wait for something to happen on it.
When I was working on the “White Series”, at some point I realized that I was shooting the same tank for a whole week. I already have two hundred photos of this tank. Sometimes you get hung up on something without even realizing it. Many young journalists shoot the work of artillery, mortars, catch the “pipe with fire”, that is, the moment when the projectile flies out. They often do not understand that it is no longer possible to look at such monotonous in composition, light and plot of photographs. You need to look for your language, yourself and your style.
Of course, it is impossible not to repeat yourself. Now I have stopped photographing some military things, because I have been taking the same photo for two years, but from different angles. This happens to everyone. At this point, it is important to pause, distance yourself, review your entire photo archive, and, if possible, make an exhibition or book.
— You photographed many events at the beginning of a full-scale war. Please tell us about the photo from the cover of Time magazine!
I don't really like this photo. However, I understand why it became the cover of the magazine. At that time it was important for Ukraine, the cover attracted our attention.
I have collaborated with various magazines since 2014, the editors knew my work. At the beginning of 2022, it was the only way for me to continue working, as photographing war is expensive. You need to find a place to live, a car to be able to travel to Kharkiv, Zaporozhye, Kiev and other cities. International magazines have been a financial pillar for me. All the magazines I collaborated with were weeklies, I didn't have to send pictures every day. I had a lot of free time for my own filming. For the first four months I worked alone, without journalists. I had freedom of movement and choice of topics. I respect journalists if they respect my work. I am willing to wait for him three hours for an interview if he then waits for me when I work in the trench. However, if a journalist expects me only to film his interview in coffee shops, we will definitely not work.
— The full-scale war in Ukraine is filmed by many photographers, both Ukrainian and foreign. During these two and a half years, many photographic stamps and templates have already been formed. What do you think are the themes and aspects of the war that have not been adequately covered? How difficult is it in the field of photography today to create something completely new?
This problem is global. It was the same in 2014. Many modern photographers do not remember this because they were not yet engaged in photography at that time. There were only a few documentary photographers who worked before the war and, when the fighting began, continued to shoot. At the same time, there was a large layer of young photographers who began working for international news agencies or as fixers for foreign journalists and photographers. They had never heard of a documentary photograph or a photojournalist. In 2015, ninety percent of these photographers disappeared. They went to earn money in game design or in IT. Now the situation is the same.
It is very difficult to form your own visual language when you work in an information agency and have to shoot events and news every day. Something went wrong and you immediately ran there. When you only have two hours or five minutes to take photos. I do not really believe that under such conditions it is possible to develop your own style. When photographers run after the subject, they shoot everything in series, and then choose the best one for the agency out of five thousand photos. I'm not criticizing, it's work. At the same time, many photographers do something for their own money, travel a lot, look for something and document something. They can form their own shooting aesthetics and style.
The photo editor of Stern magazine once said to me, “Max, the easiest thing to shoot is war. You just have to have steel eggs.” And if you send a photographer to a place where nothing happens, he will not be able to shoot anything. He is used to photographing active actions in the war, where you are as if in a movie. I also went through this. This is normal. The first year you can “hammer”, and then comes awareness and you start to see other projects.
Most of the photographers currently documenting the war will also soon go into another profession that will bring in more money. The profession is slowly dying, and only news agencies still pay something for pictures. Magazines with which I have collaborated a lot, such as The New Yorker, Time, Stern, Der Spiegel and others, cut their budgets every year. During the year you can get a maximum of two shooting orders from them. Many documentarians change jobs.
There are photo festivals in Arles — Recontres d'Arles, and in Perpignan — Visa pour l'Image. Both festivals are documentary, but it's like two different poles. I've been there and there. In Perpignan, photographers communicate about which of them spent more days in the trenches or who came under fire more times. In the city of Arles, on the other hand, the war is told from a completely different perspective — I am talking about the art of documenting. When you work with journalism, but it still remains an art. At the Recontres d'Arles festival, they talk more about the inner world, not just stating facts. Photographs are not only about what happened or happened, there the authors use the medium of photography to convey some visual concept or smart concept.
You need to know these things so as not to repeat someone else. It is important to understand modern photography, to read criticism. In fact, very few photographers read. I have talked to many young photographers, and all of them just look at colleagues' photos for inspiration. And what's the point? Watch other photographers to repeat them? If you want to repeat someone, you should watch the films of Andrei Tarkovsky or Theodore Angelopoulos, read criticism or philosophy of art. This approach will give you a lot more ideas than looking at the top photos in Time magazine or the Associated Press.
Tell me, please, what inspires you? What books do you like to read, what movies do you watch?
I am fascinated by Eastern philosophy. I must have already read everything I can on this topic. I also read Western philosophers. I read criticism and theory of photography, literature on the development of visual art. I can say that I am such a bookworm. If I am asked to go to a party or to the beach, then I better stay at home with a book. I do not drink alcohol, I do not drink coffee, I communicate little with others, I have few friends in Ukraine. I'm closer to being at home with my wife, with a close circle of friends.
The best director for me is Theodore Angelopoulos. He touched on many difficult topics. His films about the Greeks and their culture. I especially advise you to watch the historical drama “Trilogy. A weeping meadow.” It tells about the history of Greece on the example of one family that returns from Odessa to Greece after the civil war. The film leaves a lot of impressions. After watching, my wife and I can discuss it for another week.
I am inspired by everything except photography. Most of all, I like to look at pictures. Of course, I find interesting authors. For example, I just adore Nadav Kander's pictures. I love working with archival photos. I did this in the project on the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone. I still have a lot of archives from there that I haven't even started working with because of the war.
— Is it possible to continue to support attention to the war in Ukraine with photographs?
— Daily news from Ukraine is of little interest to people abroad. Everyone actively read about Bucha, the explosion of the dam of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power plant, etc., but we definitely do not need such events. Attention to Ukraine can only be focused on powerful and serious projects. These can be documentaries or photographs. However, our authorities do not understand that in order to create a large-scale in-depth project, and not propaganda, it is necessary to provide access and time for filming to Ukrainian and foreign authors. We are allowed to go to the presbytery for a day together with the pressoficer. Instead, you need to take cultural projects, multimedia projects, work with curators.
In Europe, people constantly go to cinemas, to exhibitions. You need to communicate with them through art. Our authorities must realize that it is necessary to spend money on work with museum and gallery spaces, send artists to art festivals. The authorities should provide access for filming, support documentarians, writers, artists with grant programs, give freedom for creativity, not control. Culture is important.
All my recent interviews are unfortunately about censorship and restricting access to the front line. After the material with Luke Mogelson about the life of our soldiers in the trenches, which was published in The New Yorker magazine, I was summoned for questioning at the SBU. I do not have accreditation from the Armed Forces and I cannot continue to shoot the front line. I do not believe that war is not a time to criticize the authorities. If the patient has gangrene or some other disease, it will not pass by the fact that the person will not be told about it. We need to talk about problems out loud.
Please tell me about the book you are currently working on.
“I came to the United States to finish a book about the war in Ukraine by the fall. I am helped to work on the book by Honorary Dean of ICP (International Center of Photography) Fred Ritchin. He writes a text for a book, does an interview with me. This will be a book about the first two years of a full-scale war in Ukraine, from 2024 there will be one or two photographs. The book is not only about the war, but also my reflections on it. Of course, there will be photographs of the dead, footage of the destruction, but my book is not about active fighting. I think that you can just stick the label “Meditation” to all my works. They are all about contemplation and awareness. When I see many photographers shooting something in one direction, I will definitely turn in the other direction. Therefore, my Maidan of Dignity is a panorama. I can't shoot with everyone.
He did all of his long-term projects himself. I don't need anyone to follow me or be near me. Often before shooting, I conduct visual studies, just walk, look, feel. Photography for me is about feeling, about collecting emotions. The book will be with photos that he shot before the “White Series”. Based on this author's project, I plan to make a separate book.
The material was prepared by Ekaterina Moskalyuk
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